“Some time ago, I realized that there was such a thing for me as experiencing my patients as being friends, but they were psychoanalytic friends. It was a psychoanalytic friendship that was quite unique and unlike any other friendship. I think that’s what people are talking about when they write about psychoanalytic love. It’s not love like any other kind of relationship, because the psychoanalytic relationship is so unique. And I feel the same way about psychoanalytic parenting. It’s like it’s close to mentoring, but it’s different because the structure of the relationship is different than from a mentor or an esteemed and loved teacher. It really is helping somebody with the whole process of development and helping them grow, mature, and become more comfortable with themselves and to know themselves better. That seems to me the essence of parenting, and I don’t think we should feel defensive about thinking about it that way. That doesn’t seem to me that it’s my counter-transference in needing to be a good mother, a good father, a good parent to my patients.”
David Joseph, MD
Washington DC
Episode Description:
We discuss the challenge of transmitting the experiential knowledge of the dynamic therapies to new generations. David’s book on therapeutic aphorisms demonstrates a number of key elements of this unique relationship – symbolic meanings in symptoms, ‘psychotherapeutic parenting’, the simultaneous use of medications and working with the unlikable patient to name but a few of the topics he brings forward. He describes the challenges of the negative therapeutic reaction, how “transference reactions are the creative soul of the patient’s story” and what it was like for him to admit to a patient that he lied to her. We close with his reflecting on the meaning to him of retiring from full time practice, noting “I haven’t retired my psychoanalytic mind.”
Our Guest:
David Joseph, MD is a supervising and training analyst at the Washington Baltimore Center for Psychoanalysis where he served as chair of the board and director of the Institute Council (education committee). For many years he was the Director of Residency Training at St. Elizabeths Hospital in Washington, DC. He has a long-standing interest in ethics and has written and spoken about a number of ethical issues in the practice of psychoanalysis. He closed his clinical practice several years ago, at the age of 82. In June 2025, his book: Listening for a Lifetime: The Artful Science of Psychotherapy, was published by Mission Point Press.
Recommended Reading:
Freud’s technique papers.
Greenson, R. (1952) The Mother Tongue and the Mother. JAPA, 1
Zetzel. E. (1956) Anxiety and the Capacity to Bear It.
Schafer, R. (1976) A New Language for Psychoanalysis. Yale University Press. New Haven
Wachtel, P. L.(1977) Psychoanalysis and Behavior Therapy. Basic Books, NY.
Greenberg, J. and Mitchell, S. A. (1983) Object Relations in Psychoanalytic Theory. Harvard University Press.
Arlow, J. (1995) Stilted Listening: Psychoanalysis as Discourse. PQ, 215-233.
Schafer, R. (1999) Disappointment and Disappointedness. IJP, 80: 1093-1104.
Pine, F. (2011) Beyond Pluralism: Psychoanalysis and the Working of Mind. PQ: 80, 823-856.
Poland, W. (2018) Intimacy and Separateness in Psychoanalysis. Routledge, NY.
Holmes, D, (2022). Neutrality is not Neutral. JAPA, 70: 317-322
Delightful conversation. So much clinical wisdom!
I particularly liked this: “Charles Brenner said he didn’t think psychoanalysis depended upon frequency or furniture […].”
The episode inspired me to purchase Dr. Joseph’s book:
https://www.missionpointpress.com/post/listening-for-a-lifetime-by-dr-david-joseph
As I listened intently to Harvey, the interviewer and Dr. David Joseph, I felt simultaneously held and struck that some professions are a tribute to a deep love and reverence for humanity. Thank you for the gift of this podcast session. I am incredibly interested in reading Dr. Joseph’s book.
Dear Karin,
I am deeply touched at your response to the podcast. Harvey and I were both director of psychiatry training programs and have known each other a long time. Preparing for the podcast and talking with Harvey was a pleasure and learning experience for me. I would very much appreciate knowing your thoughts about the book which I tried to make both readable for any interested person and meaningful to my professional colleagues.
Best,
David
This was wonderful
To listen to. Thank you so much. I feel I have taken away a lot especially your views/experience of what psychoanalysis is and about transference. I’m keen to get a copy of your book.
Warm wishes,
Eliza Goldberg
Hello Eliza,
I am so pleased that you enjoyed the podcast. Harvey had read my book extremely closely and was a marvelous interviewer. I hope that you find the book readable and meaningful. I would very much like to know your thoughts after you have read it. My email is
dijoseph3518@gmail.com
Harvey! A small world question. Will you ask David Joseph if he went to Walnut Hills High School? I went there and his description seemed a match. As always, thanks for the podcast. Denni Liebowitz
Hi Denni,
Yes, I went to Walnut Hills, graduating in 1959 after 6 enjoyable years that included 6 years of latin, which may account in part for my fascination with language. I am trying to go through what I might have written that spoke to you about WHHS. I’m eager to learn when you were there. I hope that you enjoyed the podcast. Harvey read my book very carefully and was a marvelous interviewer. My email is : dijoseph3518@gmail.com
Best,
David
What a thoughtful and thought-provoking interview with Dr. David Joseph. It stimulated my thinking and reflecting on the process of psychotherapy in so many ways. I’m looking forward to reading his new book, “Listening for a Lifetime.” I’m guessing that many others who listen to this podcast will want to do that too.
Mark Kaufman, MSW, PhD
University of Kansas Health System
Kansas City, Kansas
Dear Mark,
I am very glad that you enjoyed the podcast. As I am sure you could tell, Harvey had read my book very carefully and was a marvelous interviewer. I hope that you find the book readable and meaningful. After you have read it, I would very much like to know your thoughts. My email is dijoseph3518@gmail.com. Thanks for writing.
Best,
David
Hi David.
Thank you for doing this podcast. I have skipped around in your book so this reinforced what I had read and understood to the point where I almost felt I had read your book twice. I am grateful for that. I have appreciated knowing you more thoroughly and hearing your voice.
I think you are a way of being that I very much agree with and I think I somehow have always been but I also had to evolve into and more thoroughly accept myself through therapy. Upon reading this important book I believe others may well feel this impetus too.
You know I was given your name – incredibly that was over 30 years ago ! I am so glad that I finally took the opportunity to meet you. You were an important caring gift and an extension who I finally took the opportunity to meet. I felt so graciously accepted. Thank you.
My e mail has ‘bit the dust’ but I will comment further on your book when I am able to e mail again.
Continued best wishes.
Adele
Hi Adele,
I am glad that you enjoyed the podcast. Harvey Schwartz and I were psychiatry training directors and have known each other a long time. He is a masterful interviewer. I hope you find the rest of my book meaningful.
Best,
David
Mark,
I forgot to include my email address : dijoseph3518@gmail.com
David